Was bin Laden "assassinated"?
At the risk of causing our blog software to crash, here's a comment I put on Facebook yesterday, with a long string of responses. Pretty interesting to see how bin Laden's killing by U.S. forces is perceived by some of my best fans.
You'd think the death of one of America's fiercest and most lethal enemies, the most important terrorist in the war on terror, would be a moment of unalloyed joy, whether it happened in 2001 or 2011. Apparently not for a few people who commented here. You can decide for yourself why that is.
Here's the letter to the editor in question:
And here's the Facebook dialogue:
Check out Othelmo da Silva's LTE. today. Argues against going after bin Laden, refers to his death as "assassination." http://bit.ly/lvjIX3
-
Jacque Sheete likes this.
-
-
Gary Mullen-Schultz da Silva is just a tool. Says whatever he can to get his "enemies" riled up, even when he doesn't really believe it. Best to just ignore trolls like him...23 hours ago · -
Mark Thein Wow - delete a post that discusses what is IN the LTE but leave a post that calls a person a "tool" and a "troll"......really substantive.22 hours ago · -
Jay Furst What post did I delete, Mark? Haven't deleted a thing. But tell me your substantive reaction to Othelmo's letter.22 hours ago · -
Mark Thein Jay - it was on there and SOMEBODY deleted it (others read it and have confirmed this). It stated something like this:22 hours ago ·
-
-
-
Jay Furst On this page? Nobody else can access my page, pal.22 hours ago ·
-
Mark Thein exactly - now let me write it again........22 hours ago ·
-
Mark TheinInstead of attacking the messenger, one should try to understand the message. What I believe Othelmo Da Silva stated in his LTE is that the significance of assassinating (definition: "to murder (a usually prominent person) by sudden or secret attack often for political reasons") OBL is diminished due to the great amount of time between 9-11 and today and the diminished role that OBL played in the active Al Qaeda. The main message of this LTE is that President Obama should have used better judgment than to make his first trip to Ground Zero as President a grandstanding victory lap. If you look at the comments (mostly from those who disagree with his opinion - which is certainly defensible) - nobody else interpreted it to read that we SHOULDN'T have assassinated (which is what it was - which is fine in my book) OBL....
-
Mark Thein I wrote the same basic message right after GMS called Othelmo a tool and a troll but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that a facebook quirk made it disappear.....21 hours ago ·
-
Jay FurstFine opinion (and it wasn't deleted from here). My own opinion is that da Silva chose the word "assassination" for a reason, not just as another word for "killing," and reasonable people see a difference in those two words; that the papers are full of stories today about how bin Laden was still completely involved in running al-Qaida, including planning 9/11-scale attacks on the U.S., which all by itself seems like a good reason to take him out; that we apparently gathered a vast amount of important intelligence data as a result of the raid that almost certainly will help prevent more attacks and track down terrorists; that we've clearly, at minimum, disrupted a lethal enemy of America and demonstrated to the world that we don't give up in seeking justice when we're attacked, as we were on 9/11 and thereafter. So what's the downside? Da Silva's comment regarding Obama at ground zero is a sideshow to his first point, and an opinion that only Sarah Palin and other extreme conservatives share -- not, by a vast majority, the American public.21 hours ago ·
-
Gary Mullen-Schultz Sorry, Mark, but I think that he is both of those. One of the most nasty, hypocritical human beings I've ever encountered. And I've long ago lost interest in trying to argue about the merits of his positions.21 hours ago ·
-
Mark TheinPersonally, I can at least see a "reason" for the purposeful and planned assassinating of an enemy leader as compared to the (usually less thought-out/justified) killing of people - so I have no problem with the term (and, so far, none of the commenters who are disagreeing with Othelmo's position are having a problem with this word). You may be correct that OBL's continuing role in Al Qaeda was still significant and that would be a reasonable argument to make. However, as the PB's own headline writer surmised, the crux of this LTE was that President Obama's "victory lap" was not in good taste. I think it's childish to concentrate on the messenger instead of the message and, in this case, I think that led you to miss the real message.21 hours ago ·
-
Mark Thein @ Gary - calling somebody names really advances nothing. If you disagree with his (anybody's) positions, either argue against the thoughts or just don't participate. I don't care for Senator Franken (from what I know of his manners of "attacking" perceived political "enemies") but I'd much rather argue against his positions/votes than to concentrate on name calling.21 hours ago ·
-
Jacque Sheete "My own opinion is that da Silva chose the word "assassination" for a reason,"
Duh. It's called accuracy. Something corporate journalistas have no concept of.21 hours ago · -
Gary Mullen-Schultz DUH!21 hours ago ·
-
Jacque Sheete Haaretz also calls the cold blooded murder an assasination:
Good points here:
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/bin-laden-s-death-a-triumph-for-the-new-york-times-1.36119719 hours ago · -
Jay Furst Jacque -- I read, view, listen to a lot of news -- I've read a lot about bin Laden's death -- I haven't once seen or heard it referred to as an assassination. I think it's an interesting choice of words. You might want to google "bin Laden" and "assassination" and see what comes up.19 hours ago ·
-
Jay Furst I'll just add, in the context of da Silva's argument that going after bin Laden at this point was pretty much a waste of time, the word "assassination" is especially striking.19 hours ago ·
-
Jacque Sheete "I read, view, listen to a lot of news -- I've read a lot about bin Laden's death -- I haven't once seen or heard it referred to as an assassination."
Jay, you know as well as I that a claim like that is risable.
I could just as easily deduce that it proves that the corporate media is not only dishonest but parrots propaganda in lockstep.19 hours ago · -
Jacque Sheete And i don't give a rip what anyone else doesn't call it. It was an assassination by any reasonable definition. (Assuming, of course the reports of someone getting murdered contain a grain of truth.)19 hours ago ·
-
Jay Furst What's "risable" is your fake Facebook name, profile, etc., Jacque. No guts, no glory.19 hours ago ·
-
Jacque Sheete You don't know Jacque Sheete. Guts? Is that a challenge? Name the time and place!19 hours ago ·
-
Gary Mullen-Schultz I suspect we all know who JS really is...19 hours ago ·
-
Mark TheinLet's get back on subject - how does the word "assassination" not fit what happened and why does it have a negative connotation (to some) as compared to "killed" or "murdered"? In addition to the Webster definition I gave previously, the US Legal definition of the word is "Assassination is a killing of a prominent person for political or ideological reasons." Seems to me the OBL was a "prominent person", his killing had "political" ramifications and there were great "ideological reasons" for it to happen. "Assassination" would be the most "correct" word for what happened and, to most, has zero negative connotations.19 hours ago · · 1 person
-
Mark Thein PS - Gary - JS is NOT who you think it is.19 hours ago ·
-
Jacque Sheete I nominate Mark for editor. He has a better grasp of the nuances of modern American English than the current placeholder.19 hours ago ·
-
Gary Mullen-Schultz Mark - I really don't care. Someone without the guts/courage/balls/etc. to stand by their words isn't worth responding to, anyway.19 hours ago ·
-
Jacque Sheete Gary...you have no clue who Mr Sheete is, and it shouldn't matter on the playground of ideas.19 hours ago ·
-
Jacque Sheete Gary...Name the time and place. Bwa hahahahahahaha!!!! Punks.19 hours ago ·
-
Jacque Sheete I'll meet both of you punks by my own self. I'll go mano a mano or capo a capo, or both. Name it smart mouths!19 hours ago ·
-
Gary Mullen-Schultz But then you'd have to reveal yourself, and I know you don't have the courage to do that. Have fun trolling, though!19 hours ago ·
-
Jacque Sheete "Mark - I really don't care." Then why did you post this,"Gary Mullen-Schultz I suspect we all know who JS really is...?"19 hours ago ·
-
Jacque Sheete Cop out! Name it smart mouth!19 hours ago ·
-
Jacque Sheete Risible...Hehehehehehh!19 hours ago ·
-
Mark Thein OK - let's back down.....everybody and return to the topic. @Gary - Othelmo doesn't use a pseudonym and yet he is disparaged.19 hours ago · · 1 person
-
Jacque Sheete Mark...I hate backing down. I will not do it. I've called these blowhards out, and I love it.19 hours ago ·
-
Mark Thein No chance anything will ever get physical (and no need to) so no need to challenge or back down. Although I am plenty physical enough (probably a little too physically big right now), I'd much prefer to "fight" with ideas. What I have seen here is that prejudice (against Othelmo's persona based on past disagreements) has caused some to not see the forest for the trees.19 hours ago ·
-
Jacque Sheete I love a good rumble. i'll do both of 'em at the same time by myself, mental, physical or both. But notice who's calling names and doing the challenging. It the ones with the indefensible positions.
Bwahahaahhhhaaaaaa!19 hours ago · -
Jacque Sheete Hey Jay...Here's a real editor and writer:
"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. "
H. L. Mencken
US editor (1880 - 1956)19 hours ago · -
Jacque Sheete "I hate editors, for they make me abandon a lot of perfectly good English words. " (Like assassination)
Abroad with Mark Twain and Eugene Field, Fisher19 hours ago · -
Jacque Sheete "...the liberty of the Press is called the Palladium of Freedom, which means, in these days, the liberty of being deceived, swindled, and humbugged by the Press and paying hugely for the deception. "
The Twainian, May, 1940
From Author's Sketch Book, Nov. 187018 hours ago · -
DeeDee Cortez I've seen it referred to as an assassination a couple of times. It's a fair perspective and it’s what you probably would have called it if Bush got him. If Osama was merely "resisting" he could have been taz'ed like everyone else. They went in with the intent, clearly.18 hours ago · · 3 people -
Jacque Sheete I'd like them to explain how it's erroneous to label the act an assassination.
I doubt they'll rise to that challenge either.18 hours ago · · 1 person -
Carol Lindberg Feight I'd like to know who spits vitriol under the guise of a really really bad alias.... Chicken $#it comes to mind.17 hours ago · -
Jacque Sheete "Spits?" The new topic is guts. The 2 vitriolic ones haven't the guts of a canine ascarid between 'em.
In this context, I think a word that rhymes with spits would be more appropriate.17 hours ago · -
Mark Thein Let me know when this thread returns to the real topics at hand (wrongly summarizing what Othelmo's LTE was about and why some have an aversion to the word "assassination" as compared to "murder" or "killing"). Not much of a response to the real topics.17 hours ago · · 1 person
-
Jacque Sheete These guys are attempting character assassination. They're doing a very poor job of that too.
'Tis amusing to a degree.17 hours ago · · 1 person -
Kathleen CastrovinciODS's LTE is nothing more than sour grapes by a bitter person who despises all that President Obama stands for and those of us who voted for him. Will again! . The Economy is coming back. Consumer confidence is increasing(I see that in my job as Seamstress), jobs are being created, etc. THe getting of OBL isn somehtong Obama campaigned on. Bush dropped the ball badly! The Ground Zero laying of the wreath and thanking those whose loved ones perished on 9/11 for their courage and those who risked their lives to help their fellow Americans that day deserve our respect each day. I di not see any victory lap at all.17 hours ago · -
Jacque Sheete "ODS's LTE is nothing more than sour grapes by a bitter person who despises..."17 hours ago ·
-
Jacque Sheete Oh come now. Why would anyone make a comment like that? What purpose does it serve?
Othelmo is not a bitter person in the least. He is highly dissatisfied with the "leadership" of the republic, but any caring sane person would be. BTW: I agree with yo about Bush. He was worse than Clinton.17 hours ago · -
Othelmo da SilvaHow could someone who is an editor by trade so misunderstand, or perhaps deliberately misrepresent, what I said so obviously? It has to be personal.
Nowhere in my LTE did I "argue against going after bin Laden." As for my choice of the word "assassination," I briefly considered using the word "suicide" instead but realized it wouldn't work since Osama got shot in the head twice. The word "execution" would not work either since I think of it as a legal term. Executions are usually preceded by an arrest and trial followed by a conviction and sentencing rather than a simple "kill order" from the President of the United States. But then again, I am not an editor - managing or otherwise.
Instead of shamefully regurgitating the latest official version of the events surrounding Osama bin Laden's assassination (!), perhaps the sycophantic media types here and elsewhere should exercise a little more independence and skepticism like they used to in the old days.
But why do I bother? This post may disappear as quickly and mysteriously as Mark Thein's original one. POOF!14 hours ago · · 1 person -
Michele Bleskan I don't think I have ever agreed with Mr da Silva before and I am a liberal who supports President Obama. But I believe the killing of Bin Laden was an assassination but a justifiable event. If this assassination had happened under Bush I would of felt it was legitimate given Bin Laden's role in 9/11.14 hours ago · · 1 person -
Mark Thein @Michele - EXACTLY. Not sure why some are fine with calling our soldiers "killers" or "murderers" but "assassin" is somehow wrong. The world is much better place without OBL - wish it would have happened years ago.12 hours ago · · 1 person
-
Jacque Sheete "But I believe the killing of Bin Laden was an assassination but a justifiable event."
And just how did you arrive at such a conclusion? What, exactly do you know about bin Laden?20 minutes ago · -
Jacque Sheete Beware of what you approve!19 minutes ago ·
-
-
OBL is dead. Bottom line: A very good thing. Discuss away.
Posted by: RDH | 04 December 2011 at 02:14 PM
RDH,
Nevermind......
Posted by: TheinBomb | 14 May 2011 at 11:23 PM
Forgot: Nothing Obama would have done after the death of OBL would have pleased ODS. He gives no credit to Obama much the same as DFL'er give no credit to Bush for setting up some of the grunt work necessary to taking OBL out. That's just the way our political system works. Sad.
Posted by: RDH | 14 May 2011 at 10:11 PM
Mr. Thein,
I was responding to your quest to make the OBL's death into a semantics battle. Don't care. His death is a good thing for the United States and the rest of the world. Just another "mine's bigger than your" vendetta IMO.
As far as ODS's letter goes: It is off the grid from a person who I consider a very bitter man with a narrow frame of reference who trolls for "discussions" and is very successful in stirring up "stuff" much the same as you did when the PB decided to change its comments section.
- RDH.
Posted by: RDH | 14 May 2011 at 10:06 PM
Once again, RDH didn't understand the topic......
Posted by: TheinBomb | 14 May 2011 at 07:55 PM
OBL is dead. A righteous act by our military personnel. This semantic "argument" is ridiculous. He deserved killing. If Obama had not gone to Ground Zero, ODS would have zipped out a letter decrying that move. That's what he does.
Posted by: RDH | 14 May 2011 at 12:29 PM
I'm with Thein on this one. I read Othelmo's LTE the evening of its appearance, in the newspaper. Just now, I saw this blog post and comments. As I read Jay's opening comments, I did not even believe the LTE mentioned the things Jay talked about. I had to re-read the LTE to make sense -- any sense -- of Jay's comments. About two-thirds of the letter was about Obama's victory lap. Jay worked hard -- subconsciously or not -- to see a concentration on assassination and lack of value in "subduing" OBL. And Jay, Google has 1.7 million hits for "OBL assassination"
Posted by: Bruce Kaskubar | 13 May 2011 at 04:52 PM
Jay - reread your comment and have a few questions:
1. You wrote: "The word "assassination" is not a neutral word for "killing." It clearly has a negative and political connotation"
* What is the "positive" word for killing? It seems to me that "killing", "murdering", "executing" and "assassinating" are all short on "positive" definitions.
* How could one NOT find a "political" connotation out of one country (the USA) searching out an enemy leader and killing/murdering/executing/assassinating him inside a foreign country?
2. You wrote: "Bin Laden wasn't assassinated. He was killed in a raid by U.S. military -- men whose names will remain unknown but who are now among America's most legendary military heroes, in my book -- as part of our nearly 10-year-old war with al-Qaida and other terror organizations. It was a military action, not an assassination."
* Although we've already had the politically liberal (but able to separate political leanings from an argument based on word meanings and comprehension) Rochester Public Library representative find no basis for your argument, we can take it even further - Wikipedia states "Assassinations may be prompted by religious, ideological, political, or military motives" (notice "political" and "military" there?). It also goes on to state: "Assassination for military purposes has long been espoused – Sun Tzu, writing around 500 BC, argued in favor of using assassination in his book The Art of War. Nearly 2000 years later Machiavelli also argued assassination could be useful in his book The Prince. In medieval times, an army and even a nation might be based upon and around a particularly strong, canny, or charismatic leader, whose loss could paralyze the ability of both to make war"
* Although this was a valiant attempt to wrap your argument in an American Flag ("Talk to veterans, their families, 9/11 families") most will agree that there is no "positive" connotation with "murder", "kill", etc. - it's all the same deed. "Assassinate" just is the most perfect form of the action in this case - you don't assassinate people by shooting at a group randomly and knocking down as many as you can. You don't assassinate your spouses' "lover" in a fit of rage. You assassinate an enemy military leader in a planned attack. Period.
I'm all for the assassination of Osama bin Laden, proud of our military - especially the special forces - for pulling it off and glad President Obama ordered it. (although I do have BIG troubles with the lies afterward - from the "million dollar mansion", the "gunfight", the "hiding behind a wife" and the 55-45% bullcrap on the odds he was there - all of which are immaterial to your or Othelmo's argument)
Back to the crux of this argument - for the umpteenth time - because of your obvious (and publicly stated) dislike for the messenger, you attempted to put him up for ridicule by putting words into his mouth and putting an undue negative emphasis on a word. This discussion has never been about the merits of what Othelmo wrote - whether President Obama's trip to NYC was indeed vulgar or OBL was merely an old figurehead are both certainly debatable issues. You allowed your prejudice against the man to cloud your judgment of the message and the silence of your supporters is deafening. We should expect more from an editor.
Posted by: TheinBomb | 13 May 2011 at 04:16 PM
In my mind, this is much ado about semantic (And some antic) nothing.
Call it what you will--and "assassination" did cross my liberal mind, even as I rejoiced in it--Ding/Dong; the wicked al-Queda bitch is dead.
Posted by: Frank Hawthorne | 13 May 2011 at 01:29 PM
You're kind of backtracking.........
Posted by: TheinBomb | 13 May 2011 at 01:08 PM
Da Silva wrote a letter to the editor that was about two issues -- whether the raid and killing of bin Laden was worthwhile and whether Obama took a "vulgar" victory lap.
Both positions are well outside the mainstream of how most Americans view the killing of bin Laden. Read the polls. Talk to your neighbors. Talk to veterans, their families, 9/11 families, Americans generally. But it's his opinion, and we published the letter.
Da Silva wrote that bin Laden's "assassination" would have had "greater impact" if it would have occurred earlier, that bin Laden was "inactive as a terrorist mastermind" and he questioned "why have so many of our men and women in uniform died to fight 'leaders' and 'terrorist masterminds' whom (sic) we eventually find hiding in spider holes and, sometimes in plain sight?"
In other words, he questioned the value of going after bin Laden -- right, Mark?
Regarding his word choice: Mark's own citation from Webster's explains it. The word "assassination" is not a neutral word for "killing." It clearly has a negative and political connotation, which judging by the rest of da Silva's letter is exactly why he chose it.
Bin Laden wasn't assassinated. He was killed in a raid by U.S. military -- men whose names will remain unknown but who are now among America's most legendary military heroes, in my book -- as part of our nearly 10-year-old war with al-Qaida and other terror organizations. It was a military action, not an assassination.
To imply otherwise, to question the value of killing bin Laden and to call the president "vulgar" for visiting ground zero is, at minimum, interesting. Which is why I called more attention to it.
Posted by: Jay Furst | 13 May 2011 at 01:05 PM
Here's my summary of this discussion:
Othelmo wrote a Letter to the Editor that disparaged President Obama for taking a "victory lap" at Ground Zero (his first trip there as President). Othelmo also stated: "Osama bin Laden's assassination would have had a greater impact on The War on Terror had it taken place closer to the 9/11 attacks."
Jay Furst has obvious disdain for Othelmo da Silva and purposely misrepresented - via Twitter and Facebook - that what Othelmo wrote meant that he was "against going after bin Laden" (despite the fact that the LTE never said such a thing) and then took umbrage with the use of the word "assassination" (instead of "killing", "murder" or "execution"). Of all the censor-approved comments on the LTE, I believe only Jack_Pappass didn't approve of the word "assassination" and I do not believe that ANYBODY else thought that Othelmo's message was that we shouldn't have gone after bin Laden. Jay then allowed a crony to call Othelmo a "tool" and a "troll" (one of Jay's favorite terms).
For the record -
Webster defines "assassination" as - "to murder (a usually prominent person) by sudden or secret attack often for political reasons" and the "legal" definition of the word is: "Assassination is a killing of a prominent person for political or ideological reasons."
STILL waiting to hear why that is the wrong word for what we did (and, keep in mind, I have NO problem with what we did to bin Laden)............
Posted by: TheinBomb | 13 May 2011 at 12:09 PM